I agree in principle if not in tone with Erik; unless you already have EPROM devices, an eraser and a programmer, it is a much more effective use of your time and money to begin with In System Programmed processors.

Thanks, Michael

let me explain:

re "if not in tone": I have seen so many panics and disasters resulting from "kitchen table programmers" and I will thus do anything including "tone" to discourage beginners from making them. Just read the questions asked here. Do they indicate the knowledge and instrumentation to build a reliable programmer is present?.

Building programmers that meet all specs is both critical and difficult. Some of the designs out there are so marginal that replacing a HC with LS (which we all "know is OK") will lead to marginal programming such as fuses broken, not blown.

Dear Charles, I am not against you or e.g. Michael building a programmer, obviously you have the know-how and tools to do it, but as a beginners first project (he can not make the uC the first project if he can not program it) is a total disaster

Before the plethora of ISP chips were available I did not use the phrase "kitchen table programmer" simply because building one was the only way out for the amateur on a budget, but today with plenty of ISP chips available it is irresponsible to let a beginner lose on building a kitchen table programmer.

tell the beginners to use ISP

Erik