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???
07/15/09 08:11
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Msg Score: +1
 +1 Good Answer/Helpful
#167300 - Don't be so quick to experiment
Responding to: ???'s previous message
1) When you see + and - in the datasheet for a relay, it is always the polarity you should use from your power supply.

2) If we ignore any internal zener and just assume you have a "normal" relay with an internal diode, then it is important that you don't try to feed the relay with reversed polarity. The diode-will short-circuit if you reverse the polairty, and unless the power supply has a current-limitation, you will destroy the diode.

3) You are switching the relay on the negative side. The positive side of the relay is always at +5V. When you disconnect the ground side of the relay, the relay will continue to drive a current in the same direction as before. Without a diode, this current will go through the air, or through other electronic components. With the free wheeling diode, the current will just loopback between the two poles of the relay coil, and the voltage over the relay coil will then be one diode voltage. But since your + pin of the relay is already fixed at +5V, your - pin of the relay will be one diode voltage higher than +5V.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyback_diode

All DC-driven inductive loads needs a free wheeling diode to protect the circuit when you disconnect the load. In some situations, a diode exists inside the relay. This will require that you drive it with DC of correct polarity. In some situations, the switching transistor may have a design allowing it to swallow the energy. But sutch a switching transistor will only protect itself (from a limited number of load disconnects/second) - it will not protect other equipment (such as your LED) since any protection inside the transistor may allow a quite high voltage compared to the normal coil voltage.

It was bad of the relay manufacturer to not show a schematic explicitly presenting their diodes. With a 56V zener in series with a normal diode, you will have to treat the relay as not having any internal protection and instead use an external diode. Or find another relay manufacturer. The important thing is that you need a diode design that will not let the relay coil build up a high voltage at disconnect.

Don't be in such a hurry to experiment. Do read the answers you get.

Note that you may design without the diodes, and if all you do is design by experiment, it may look like it works. But what your experiments may not show, is how the 7407 buffer chip and the LED will age by the abuse. Your experiments will not notice this unless you get a total failure. This may happen on the first disconnect. But it may just happen after 100 or 1000 disconnects. That is why you always have to design based on a theoretic foundation. It isn't enough if something looks correct.

List of 137 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
debugging AT89S52            01/01/70 00:00      
   where?            01/01/70 00:00      
   FAQs            01/01/70 00:00      
   Image uploaded and other corrections made            01/01/70 00:00      
      You MUST use a max232 or equivalent            01/01/70 00:00      
         MAx232 connections            01/01/70 00:00      
            if you have connected the PC RS232 directly            01/01/70 00:00      
            ambiguous?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Not necessarily!            01/01/70 00:00      
   Image of MAx232 connection for reference            01/01/70 00:00      
      89S52 - PC -> MAX232 conenctions            01/01/70 00:00      
         max 232 connection            01/01/70 00:00      
            To test MAX232            01/01/70 00:00      
               Testing a Com port using hyperterminal            01/01/70 00:00      
                  PC Loop-back            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Connections of COm port            01/01/70 00:00      
                        So what about direct on the COM port            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Check the PC's driver            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Testing an RS232 driver            01/01/70 00:00      
                              results of rs232 testing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Hyperterminal            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    data not displayed in echo mode in hyperterminal            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Why do you call it hypoterminal?            01/01/70 00:00      
            I got confused regarding the value of capacitors            01/01/70 00:00      
   MAx driver and hypertermianl problem solved but...            01/01/70 00:00      
      can somebosy please reply?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Try a step by step aproach            01/01/70 00:00      
            Reg Step by step approach            01/01/70 00:00      
               How are you programming the flash memory of AT89S52            01/01/70 00:00      
                  clarifications            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Not to UART            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Additional info about the board AT89S52 and ISP            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Many issues solved but one            01/01/70 00:00      
                              How?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 diode...connection            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Explain with graph or text            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       clarification            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Study the AT89S52 datasheets            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Please read the answers you get            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             It works now!!!!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                What series resistor?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Connection of diode            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Please clarify            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      the problem is NOT the 2.7V            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         clarifications            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Google Ohms law            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Report            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Measure pin voltage when held low, not hgh            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     trouble again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        details...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Troll?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              clarification            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 I am not an electrical engineer I am a mechanical engineer            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Do not accept everything as is, Revise your schematic            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              who cares?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Short-circuit            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    OOPS, anyhow            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              circuit revised but ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 have changed to new buffers ..            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Post the revised schematic to check            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    schematic            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       there are "LED resistors" whwre are the LEDs and            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          you are in deep waters            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          what's the error?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       It is hopeless, but anyhow            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Vf for diode            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Too deep waters indeed, describe everything            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             then how do you propose they will both work when in patralle            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Haven't you seen that he has series resistors with each LED?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   update            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Resistor value            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         update.-2            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            free-wheel diode            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               details of relay            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  details of relay-2            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     free-wheel diode always reversed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  No simple diode but a zener in series!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     zener and IN4148 already in series?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        clarification            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        The datasheet is a bit confusing...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           no space to connect            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                              Solder it on the solder side!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                 Thanks..but            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                              Did you made a PCB ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                 YEs true            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                    Regarding zener and In4148            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                       update on relay testing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                          testing relay using multimeter            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                    NO, NO, NO            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                 as opposed to            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   what about the coil across the LEDs?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      full picture of relay            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         use preview            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            true            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Heaven, Erik, ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         it works but for relay orientation            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            Look at this, too            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               latest posts            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  Don't be so quick to experiment            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     clarifications            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        make simple tests like this            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           reg the test circuit..            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                              circuit details            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                 Still experimenting            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                              Already covered in this thread - more than once            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                 but how did the above circuit work?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                    Experiments can work, even if incorrect            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                       there is no zener diode            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                          Don't ignore the datasheet.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                             thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                          Forget the sales engineer!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                             Minimum turn-on voltage            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                    it HAPPENS to            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                       ther is no other way now            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                          where there is a will, there is a way            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                             is this what you are suggesting?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                             Relay            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                Finally reached the shore            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                   Project completed ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                      yes completed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                         Good luck!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                            Reagrding other relays            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                               Scan through catalogs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                               you do not need to buy there, but            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                                  form factor            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                                     The datasheets normally have the answer            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                                        files            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                                           Not so many files            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                                              Regarding LEd            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                                                 _always_ current-limited supply!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                                                 Only if it contains a current limiting resistor!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                                                    thanks and file updates            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                                                       You can enormously save user space...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                                                          Hard now            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                                                             Correct!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        never do that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         Kai, you must be able to see invisible ink            01/01/70 00:00      

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