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???
01/25/07 23:14
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#131510 - neither
Responding to: ???'s previous message
I've pointed out that using a relatively "slow" device does not make the system slow.
That's right just ignore the examples I gave (see below)

but I also know that there are places where a 2.5 MHz MCU is adequate. Since a slower clock means less power, I imagine that's worthy of consideration.
this is just hilarious talking about conserving power AND using a 8255

Latency is the duration of a transaction, i.e. from when the first bit is sent to when the last bit arrives or, in cases where that's needed, when the final transition of the transaction occurs.
clarify for 'interrupt latency' the time from the external event till the ISR is entered.


If it's 5000 bits per half-millisecond, what do you do in the other half-millisecond?)
do it again


That 480kbps that you mentioned must be the bit-banged rate, as I know of no UART that supports so high a rate
Occasional upload via UART of "the next bunch of bits to be bit-banged out repeatedly" The SIlabs f12x, f13x UART support "so high a rate" easily.



What would interest me more than anything else, though, would be to know how you fit 5000 bits at 480kbps into half a millisecond.
I bang 5000 bits per halfmillisecond and occasionally recieve an update at 480kbaud

I'd be very interested in seeing code that can, at 100 MHz, in one of your SiLabs MCU's bit-bang a serial link at that rate, i.e. 5000 bits per half-millisecond. I'd guess it's not as precisely timed as you suggest.
the only timing is 'within', the bits must be transferred before a timer tick strobes.

facts:
1) (with or without a speed switch)(synchronous) The snail is unusable for fast I/O.

What's a speed switch (synchronous)? The SiLabs parts, like the Maxim/Dallas parts, don't switch speeds. They simply add cycles, effectively stretching the external memory bus cycles. It's just an internal wait-state generator.

terminology speed switch - cycle stretcher

2) (with a speed switch)(asynchronous) when an interrupt is coinciding with whatever the snail is doing the latency is horrendously increased
(without a speed switch)(asynchronous) when an interrupt is coinciding with an external memory access the latency is horrendously increased.
The 8255 doesn't "do" anything.
and the you say that it does I admit 16 clock-ticks as opposed to one is quite an extension of the cycle. However, it's just that one cycle. The rest are "normal" cycles.
Ok, since you can not understand it, let me bend it in neon: If an interrupt happens at a 'normal' movx, the interrupy latency will be (if I recall correctly) 7 cycles. however if it happens at the beginning of a 16 cycle stretch it will be 22 ( 7 +15) cycles. If you had some (slightly) time critical interrupts that would give you a nice intermittent failure do you understand it now?

3) (with a speed switch)(general) if any ISR is using XDATA (or, even worse, accessing the snail) the 'housekeeping' becomes a real burden.
In what sense is "housekeeping" a problem? Do you mean cycle counting? You still have to do it. It's just the value that you add to the elapsed time. Surely the arithmetic isn't the problem.

If you just tried to absorb instead of flying to the defense of the snail you would understand. Housekeeping means that if you do not know the speed - ok cycle stretch mode - of the data bus when an interrupt happens (and you cant when you keep changing it) you will need to save (change) and restore the cycle length status adding 'housekeeping overhead"

4) (with or without a speed switch) if you can live with the timing of the snail, you can, most likely, live with the timing of IIC or SPI and save a whole lot of port pins (which you then can use for fast I/O) note: any decent modern derivative has HW SPI and/or IIC. Stupidly bit banging either would invalidate this point, but then the use of the snail would not be a problem since your uCs technology would be equally old.


Again, I'd like you to provide a detailed example of this. Bit-banging is a burden, but so long as it doesn't have to be high-rate synchronous communication, i.e. going on all the time in sync with an internally or externally generated clock with idle-characters, and other synchronous protocol features, It's not so bad. There is a top-end on IIC, and SPI, isn't there? You don't have to put in idle characters either, do you, so it's really just clocked isochronous communication. I've never bit-banged either of these, so I don't know much about 'em. I'd be very interested in seeing how much a 16-cycle (or less) wait-state impacts system operation. After all, when you're doing serial comm's, you're often just waiting for it to end anyway.

bit banging hangs the cpu till done, anyhow I thought we were discussing the snail, not bit banged IIC/SPI which is why I only referred to current technology when i mentioned IIC/SPI, sorry i forgot your penchant for yesterdays stuff.

5) using a modern derivative with sufficient internal ROM and RAM you would lose as many pins as you 'gained' using the snail.
It would be really interesting to see an example demonstrating that from you, involving, say, 96 port bits.

you keep stating that my examples are 'unique' yours are even more so



List of 144 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
speed of microcontroller            01/01/70 00:00      
   crystal            01/01/70 00:00      
      Incorrect!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Sorry.            01/01/70 00:00      
   Impossible to say!            01/01/70 00:00      
      confusion            01/01/70 00:00      
         Jan you need to add            01/01/70 00:00      
            scroll down            01/01/70 00:00      
               the enlightenment that it "was explained there tha            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I may move it...            01/01/70 00:00      
   Other things            01/01/70 00:00      
   Anything can happen            01/01/70 00:00      
      That's why we have Datasheets!            01/01/70 00:00      
      switching times            01/01/70 00:00      
         the other way round            01/01/70 00:00      
         You've missed the point entirely!            01/01/70 00:00      
            Example            01/01/70 00:00      
         show and tell            01/01/70 00:00      
   where the datasheet belong            01/01/70 00:00      
      Overclocking            01/01/70 00:00      
         How maximum speed is set            01/01/70 00:00      
            you forgot            01/01/70 00:00      
               the overclockers...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Vdd and leakage            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Lynn, please....            01/01/70 00:00      
   and Lynn please ...            01/01/70 00:00      
      Are the average readers...            01/01/70 00:00      
         i do not know the 'average'            01/01/70 00:00      
            Job security            01/01/70 00:00      
         Off-datasheet operation            01/01/70 00:00      
         view of an insider to the insides...            01/01/70 00:00      
      careful now, Erik            01/01/70 00:00      
         apples and oranges            01/01/70 00:00      
            Yes, your example was 25 ppm ... ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               OT: It feels like home...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Well ... this topic is totally exhausted ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     as the song says "let me entertain you"            01/01/70 00:00      
                        That doesn't change anything.            01/01/70 00:00      
                            BULLSHIT            01/01/70 00:00      
                              so what? You\'ve got lots of bandwidth. Use it!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Once again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Richard, do you have an electric drill?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I read that ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       3 - three - wrongs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    If you believe this, then read the datasheet again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       clarification            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          OT: for all the 8255 lovers and haters...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             It's not about the 8255, Jan            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                where thr .... did you get that from?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Please clarify ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      if that is what you want to call it, then yes.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Well, that\'s a horse of a different color            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            what about "roughconvert" do you not understand            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               OK ... so that's 1250 bytes/ms ,,, or 12.5 Mbps ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  I have no intention            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     It won't benefit me ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        nope, for that I am paid            01/01/70 00:00      
                        OOOH! You're right ... I misread your post            01/01/70 00:00      
                           yes, stick an \'always\' in            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Are you distorting or just misinformed?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 neither            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    now let me get this straight ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       This would be so darn easy to describe if I were n            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          More clarification, please, Erik            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             At the risk of entering a flame war...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Yes, I suspect it is ... but he didn't say that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   gave you all you need, if you want to argue \'possi            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      You're wandering off track ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         then how come you keep asking            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Because you, Erik, have overstated your case            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             the danger of 'it'            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                not quite ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Richard, I would never accuse you of such a            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Artist vs. engineer            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      why, were it not for you, then ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         How do I...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Thre has been no other reason to bring this partic            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               depends on the circumstances            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Jan, consider the details, please            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     bit bang for lack of other term            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Jan, that may be, but I don\'t think so ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           on interfacing both slow and fast on external bus            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Your conclusion doesn't follow, Jan            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 I did not discuss the appropriateness of any...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     again ignoring increased interrupt latency            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        What latency is that, Erik?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           I already did            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Not exactly ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 not me, necessarily            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Just how would that occur?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       finally you got it.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Once again, Erik, you\'ve missed the point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  once more ignoring interrupt latency            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               double post again ... looks like the server\'s slow            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         I'm lost long ago...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Jan, it\'s not my \"red herring\"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               not so wide range of applications            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  What do you mean?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     this discussion or engineering?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Oh, this annyoing beating arround the bush!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Sorry Erik!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Optimal? Well, maybe occasionally ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           not use antiques is interfering with progress???            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Yes, the learner's progress            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Is that not obvious?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    nope ... not that simple            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       in the post you are responding to!!!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Erik, You have no argument ... just an opinion            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       wrong once more            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Erik, YOU said it affects nothing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             this is NOT about \'me\' or \'mine\'            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                there you go again ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with any specific            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      We definitely disagree on this ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         if you can not accept this being general, then            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            It has to be personal and about YOU, Erik            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               I thought so            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  Now you've proven my point, Erik            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     back to technical ONLY            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        So, what's the problem?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           what good would that do?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                              Can't you support your dubious assertions?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                 no ';cases' please            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                    Without specifics, there's no proof            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                       I will not            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                          All you've done so far, Erik, is huff and puff ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                             I have given you 'details'            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                                Maybe, but your \"details\" don\'t support your claim            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Jan, there are always tradeoffs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     forgetting the \"methods of yore\" and instead discu            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               he can            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  There's a semantic problem ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     already answered            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Get over it, Erik ... I don't want your "secrets"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            once more ignoring interrupt latency bugs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               You keep referring to interrupts ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  I even made that exception            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     That's probably quite true            01/01/70 00:00      
   Why "non-specific/vague question" karma point??            01/01/70 00:00      
      You don't get more vague than...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Come on...            01/01/70 00:00      
            question vs answer            01/01/70 00:00      
            we still only guess            01/01/70 00:00      
               So...            01/01/70 00:00      

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