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???
12/23/07 05:27
Modified:
  12/23/07 05:49

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#148626 - I didnt tell that it is random
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Kai said:
See the weather for example, everything follows the well known laws of physics, but you cannot predict the weather for a longer period.

I told, that everything follows the very well known laws of physics. That is why mathematicans always mean the deterministic chaos, if they talk about chaos.

Nevertheless there is no way to implement the Laplace Daemon, a machine, which once fed by all physical data of the whole world at one moment can predict the situation in the future. This is because you cannot determine all the physical data at the same time. Remember Heisenberg: The more precise you prepare the location of a particle the more imprecise the momentum becomes. This finally means that you cannot talk about a particle as a thing moving allong a path. You can only talk about the probability of finding the particle within a certain area. And now randomness comes into play. Telling that the particle is within a certain area is as uncertain as throwing a dice. Chaos finally is a consqequence of uncertainty relation expanded on macroscopic dimensions.

Or another example: Put a few billard balls in a row, as exactly as you can, and push the first against the second, again as exactly as you can, then you cannot predict whether the fifth ball will hit the sixth.
The momentum of the fifth ball is unpredictable, it is random, like throwing a dice. Nevertheless this arrangement follows all the well known laws of physics, like the conservation law of momentum etc.

Joseph said:
In point of fact, chaos is, by definition, not random. Choas involves things which are wholly deterministic, as in the case of the hypothetical butterfly effect. Every consequence is caused by something.

I see, you take the randomness definiton by Aristoteles. Exactly, everything is deterministic. Nevertheless, the point is the following: If you take two absolute identical weather situations at the beginning, where all parameters are absolutely identical, you will never get exactly the same weather situation at a later date! If so, you could design the Laplace Daemon, which is impossible due to the uncertainty principle. The randomness introduced by the uncertainty principle, allthough everything obeys the physical laws, means is deterministic, is why I stated, that chaos is a mixture of randomness and determinism.

Kai

List of 53 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
let's discuss random numbers            01/01/70 00:00      
   Radomness            01/01/70 00:00      
   chi squared....            01/01/70 00:00      
      51 related            01/01/70 00:00      
   how random is "Random"?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Quantifying randomness            01/01/70 00:00      
   Use one table in the memory            01/01/70 00:00      
   no 'mathematical solution can do that            01/01/70 00:00      
      I like your response            01/01/70 00:00      
   ADC and noise            01/01/70 00:00      
      reminds me of a funny story            01/01/70 00:00      
         Simple local shielding would have helped            01/01/70 00:00      
         Bad design!            01/01/70 00:00      
   The counter and button seems perfect to me            01/01/70 00:00      
   Not sure why people have problems with RNG            01/01/70 00:00      
      what I got out of all of this            01/01/70 00:00      
         Not quite?            01/01/70 00:00      
            And if there isn't a button?            01/01/70 00:00      
         no            01/01/70 00:00      
         More Not Quite            01/01/70 00:00      
            chi square isn't enough            01/01/70 00:00      
               Quantified randomness            01/01/70 00:00      
      By Definition            01/01/70 00:00      
      RNG schemes can be malicious!            01/01/70 00:00      
   pseudo IS pseudo, not random            01/01/70 00:00      
   A really good reference            01/01/70 00:00      
   Is radioactive decay truely random?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Correction            01/01/70 00:00      
      Is anything truly random?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Chaos is...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Chaos is not random.            01/01/70 00:00      
               I didnt tell that it is random            01/01/70 00:00      
   Visual randomness test            01/01/70 00:00      
      Las Vegas            01/01/70 00:00      
      Only for an indefinite number of pixels            01/01/70 00:00      
         How about a coin toss experiment, sort of.            01/01/70 00:00      
            Set of what ?            01/01/70 00:00      
               But my point is that you can know.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  This is wrong, sorry!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Are you even reading what I wrote?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        A random system is....            01/01/70 00:00      
                           AKA the LCE            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Random is            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Of course, I did            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Before we proceed, ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Randomness versus determinism            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Applying the uncertainty principle            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       You're welcome            01/01/70 00:00      
                  It is still Random            01/01/70 00:00      
            Depends            01/01/70 00:00      
   Normal distribution.            01/01/70 00:00      
   A random # generator circuit.            01/01/70 00:00      

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