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03/25/08 13:09
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#152515 - I believe you may have missed the point
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Asok Sankar Rudra said:
Hello Everybody,
Hello Erik,Hello Kai,
Welcome.Regards.

Remember that relays need a minimum current to get the contacts reliably closed.

Kai



Yes Sir.Relays in this project are only in remote control receivers, each has one, each consumes around 24/3000=8mA,thank God, otherwise it would have been difficult to manage in TRFless design. Since relays will be dead on or off for long time I can afford much more than normal debounce-delays before accepting their active or inactive states and yet manage the 10-external inputs(relays) plus 10 on-board inputs (tactiles) polling loop in a couple of seconds which I think is reasonable.

Now how much is those couple of seconds in different situations is the headache.

My respected teachers, I am sorry, SPECIFATIONS nowadays are vague. It becomes my duty to design the problem and solve myself based on actual user's choice.

Hence comes the question how to notify the user at central detector about the inputs:one is 7seg.10 such 7segs are going to consume 10 pins.So 30 pins are gone.
Another vehicle to notify the user will be audio,the user did want some better musical sounds.But the music SHOULD NOT continue for long,be it for one relay or several relays.Here is the problem Michael.The music consuming my two timers must be enabled and disabled by two different stimuli, one, end of programmed duration AND/or two, tactile switches. That is why I asked why 10 tactiles should be necessary?

Any one or all connected parallel (cheat) should do.

I am sorry for difficult and lengthy question. You have to read and read I am afraid, but your responses are highly encouraging. Please find fault in my assumptions and logics and kindly advise.
As it stands now no "rapid response" and no " '14 schmitt"..

Am I wrong?

Perhaps you are. Nothing you've said eliminates the need for the Schmidt-triggers. Without them, you have no vehicle for sensing your relay contact closures with any sort of noise immunity. You were concerned about noise. The optoisolators don't help at all with that. They could, in fact, make things worse. Moreover, they are costly, considering that they contribute no benefit. The relay contacts alone already can provide electrical isolation from the sending circuit. All you have to do is to remove the +12-volt connection and source the current from the receiver instead. You won't need very much current, but, as Kai has already pointed out, you do need some current. If you simply provide a +5 volt connection at the receiver, through a 1 k-ohm resistor, that should be adequate, though, if the cables are very long, > 10 meters, then perhaps a lower value might be indicated. The lower the resistance, the more energy has to be in the noise spectrum, in order for it to be a factor. Perhaps the best thing would be to attach your relay contacts to the receiving station and sense it at a resistor to GND. When the voltage is high, and you'll have to determine that based on cable length and cable characteristics, the Schmidt-trigger inverter will output a low level. If you want to be precise, you could use a higher voltage supply as you've already suggested you're doing, and a constant-current source. That way, you can closely control the voltage at the receiver. I doubt that's necessary, however.

With best regards

A.S.Rudra


Erik has pointed out that you haven't been clear about your operational requirements at the receiver. Do you need only one common acknowledge switch to acknowledge all the inputs or do you need one for each remote station?

If you intend to have one 7-segment display at the receiver for each transmitting station, you still only need 7 segments and one digit select for each display. That means you need 8 lines per display, though 7 of them can be common to all 10 displays. How the display segments are driven will depend on the requirements of the individual LED displays. The MCU will probably not be sufficient to drive the segments, and certainly won't be adequate to drive the digit selects, assuming common cathode displays. If they're common anode, you probably will need even more buffering.

I'd suggest you look at 7-segment decoder/drivers, and digit selectors such as 7445 just to get an idea of how this can be done. If the displays are common-cathode, a 7445 will drive the digit selects nicely, and a 7449 will drive all 10 display segment sets just fine. If your displays are common anode, then perhaps 4511 or 7447 might work for you. It's probably less costly to use one of these devices, intended for this purpose, than to use some discrete buffering approach. The 7445 will easily sink the current from all digits in common cathode displays, and, if the common anode is buffered with a PNP (e.g. 2N3906) transistor per display, it will perform the needed digit select function. Presumably you'll time-multiplex the displays so one 7-segment decoder/driver is all you'll need, together with a series resistor pack and a single digit selector. Four lines from the MCU will drive the digit selector, and four more will be needed to drive the 7-segment decoder/driver. That's only eight lines from the MCU. There are many ways in which this can be done, but these provide a reasonable example.

RE



List of 44 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Possibly noisy Relay/Switch Inputs            01/01/70 00:00      
   Schmitt inverter            01/01/70 00:00      
      Thanks Steve but please note change            01/01/70 00:00      
         Steve's suggestion is certainly valid!            01/01/70 00:00      
            Thanks Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
               Do you really need the optoisolators?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Why Schmitt Gates            01/01/70 00:00      
            That is the purpose of Schmidt-triggers ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   This is how I would do it            01/01/70 00:00      
      I'd probably do that too, except ...            01/01/70 00:00      
      Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
         The waters have been muddied ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
               Yes, it's clearer, but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Priority Encoder Not a Good Idea            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Yes, highest priority input would mask others            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Welcome Sir Michael Karas            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Note Length & Cadence on One Timer            01/01/70 00:00      
         Noise            01/01/70 00:00      
            It's all analog            01/01/70 00:00      
   Another way to do this            01/01/70 00:00      
   how fast do you need to detect the contacts            01/01/70 00:00      
      Hello Erik,Hello Kai,            01/01/70 00:00      
         what are you describing?            01/01/70 00:00      
            actual distance test(ohmically)            01/01/70 00:00      
               please answer questions            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Part success            01/01/70 00:00      
                     In the last analysis, it is up to you            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Provocative            01/01/70 00:00      
                           totally irrelevant            01/01/70 00:00      
                     what 'common'            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Transformerless supply...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I do not understand, parallelling switches            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Absolutely deadly dangerous!!!!            01/01/70 00:00      
                              parallelling switches            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Sorry, but I see a contradiction...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    shock? touching what?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Come on!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          The standard to which we designed ...            01/01/70 00:00      
         I believe you may have missed the point            01/01/70 00:00      
   Current rating of relay?            01/01/70 00:00      
      not to nitpick, but            01/01/70 00:00      
         Thank you very much Erik            01/01/70 00:00      

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