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???
06/29/05 12:26
Modified:
  06/29/05 12:33

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#96180 - Theoretical work missed
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Stanley said:
This is the circuit. Any mistake or improvment?

Use 1k and 100k instead of 10k and 1M in the feedback of first LM318. Use 1k and 47k instead of 10k and 470k in the feedback of second LM318. Use 22R + 100µF + 100nF in each supply voltage line to each LM318. Connect a 10k resistor from input of second LM318 to ground. Remove first diode, use 4k7 resistor instead. Remove 10k resistor at second diode, use 47k instead. Connect the cathode of second diode to inverting input of LM339, not to non-inverting input. Connect the poti to non-inverting input. Connect 1M resistor from non-inverting input to output of LM339. Remove 10k resistor at output, use 4k7 instead.

I don't understand how you calculate and conclude that the LM324 can't have a high gain at 40kHz. Something relate to the frequency response?

Sorry, but I have to state this: It's time that you have a look into a textbook about OPamps, because you ask this question over and over again and make the same mistakes. Designing a circuit needs two things to do, theoretical work and practical work. But you totally omit the theoretical work! For properly working with OPamps there's a minimum of theoretical knowledge needed!

Most Opamps have a maximum gain called 'open loop gain', that is frequency dependent. At unity gain bandwidth the maximum achievable gain is 1 and increases by about 20dB with decreasing frequency by one decade. So, LM324 showing a unity gain bandwidth of 1MHz has a maximum gain of 10 at 100kHz and 100 at 10kHz. At 40KHz the maximum gain is 25.

So, you can theoretically achieve a maximum gain of 25 at 40kHz. But, as most OPamps are very unlinear, which is especially true for LM324 you need a certain gain reserve called 'loop gain' to increase the linearity. A gain reserve of at least 10 is needed for most applications. So, this gives you a maximum gain of your circuit called 'closed loop gain' of 25/10 = 2.5 for LM324 at 40kHz!!

In applications, where the linearity of gain is not so demanding, especially if only a simple detection of a carrier is needed, then 'closed loop gain' can be increased a little bit, means 'loop gain' can be decreased a little bit. But take care, there's no much headroom for doing this, because there are many negative effects with this, like increased risk of instability and so forth.

Kai

List of 187 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Ultrasonic Signal Processing            01/01/70 00:00      
   Time dependant gain            01/01/70 00:00      
      Further attenuation...            01/01/70 00:00      
   Signal recovery.            01/01/70 00:00      
      AGC?            01/01/70 00:00      
   AGC as Steve said//            01/01/70 00:00      
   My Algorithm was:            01/01/70 00:00      
      My Algorithm was:            01/01/70 00:00      
   Ultrasonic Ranging            01/01/70 00:00      
   Matched filter on the rescue            01/01/70 00:00      
   matched filters            01/01/70 00:00      
      Phase locked amplifier            01/01/70 00:00      
         Its a different thing            01/01/70 00:00      
            Ah            01/01/70 00:00      
               Thats the one....            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Clever woman            01/01/70 00:00      
      Just an idea            01/01/70 00:00      
   The scope plot tells it all!            01/01/70 00:00      
   Largest signal            01/01/70 00:00      
      'Greatest' echo is the wrong criterion!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     01/01/70 00:00      
         somehow I remember...            01/01/70 00:00      
            No, no...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Oops~ forgot...            01/01/70 00:00      
   the product            01/01/70 00:00      
      Power of transmission pulse            01/01/70 00:00      
   Preamp circuit Here            01/01/70 00:00      
      Add caps to remove base line noise            01/01/70 00:00      
      Another potential problem...            01/01/70 00:00      
   Problem with ADC?            01/01/70 00:00      
   possible solution to the ADC problem            01/01/70 00:00      
      Ok~            01/01/70 00:00      
   Debug Result            01/01/70 00:00      
      ADC Sampling and code debugging            01/01/70 00:00      
         sampling time            01/01/70 00:00      
   Adc for Ultrasonic?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Next, comes to "average"            01/01/70 00:00      
      Why use the adc?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Forgot to tell...            01/01/70 00:00      
   Circle in RED            01/01/70 00:00      
   Asking for help again - Filter            01/01/70 00:00      
      Notch            01/01/70 00:00      
         I don't know            01/01/70 00:00      
            DSP            01/01/70 00:00      
               Nah            01/01/70 00:00      
                  for the sake of learning            01/01/70 00:00      
                     so            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I agree            01/01/70 00:00      
         Amplitude            01/01/70 00:00      
            Op amps            01/01/70 00:00      
               100pF            01/01/70 00:00      
                  bypass ??            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                        No sort of bypass            01/01/70 00:00      
                           BTE054 BTE054USS2            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Better noise control            01/01/70 00:00      
                              re: BTE054            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Replace LMV6032 with LM324            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    re:low sensitivity            01/01/70 00:00      
                              re:no filtering            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Note            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Notch filter?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    No,            01/01/70 00:00      
      Bandpass            01/01/70 00:00      
         NOT a criticism            01/01/70 00:00      
            Update...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Umm... Nowadays?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Op amp parameters            01/01/70 00:00      
                     "Filters for Dummy"            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Have you tried it with .....            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Yes, I've tried it and it works well            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Basic electronics            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 0.002uF -> 3300uF            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    re:noise            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Exactly the same            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          test of signal            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             It's over 1.2m            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    TWO bypass caps.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Two were found            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Usenet            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Why using a PLL, when a bandpass can ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 which is why ,,,,            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Not sure what you meant..            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Already            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    But it MUST work properly!!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Circuit here            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Op-amp to replace LM324            01/01/70 00:00      
         Non-inverting Input Voltage Divider            01/01/70 00:00      
   LM567            01/01/70 00:00      
   re:LM324            01/01/70 00:00      
      re:wrong link            01/01/70 00:00      
      No AGC            01/01/70 00:00      
         AGC            01/01/70 00:00      
            Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
         re: no AGC            01/01/70 00:00      
      LMC6032 is much more linear than LM324            01/01/70 00:00      
         re:            01/01/70 00:00      
         re:attenuation of signal            01/01/70 00:00      
            Good ones and bad ones            01/01/70 00:00      
         another article of interest            01/01/70 00:00      
   tramsmit & receive            01/01/70 00:00      
      how to measure the distance perfectly?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Fatal Error!            01/01/70 00:00      
            How about this one....            01/01/70 00:00      
               Ultrasonic Detection Code!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  is that right?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Not right,,,,,            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Thanks!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  another missing!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  i'll try it..            01/01/70 00:00      
   Some Applications of ultrasonic            01/01/70 00:00      
   "Op amps for everyone"            01/01/70 00:00      
   woo... tiring trip            01/01/70 00:00      
      Check this one            01/01/70 00:00      
         Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
            is it not fundamentally wrong            01/01/70 00:00      
               Both            01/01/70 00:00      
               I knew that...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Synthetic grounds            01/01/70 00:00      
                  no, Kai            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Steve, Erik            01/01/70 00:00      
         The circuit works, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Moral            01/01/70 00:00      
               Puh, what antennas...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Which means I can't use breadboard            01/01/70 00:00      
                     In one word.            01/01/70 00:00      
            Using the LM318            01/01/70 00:00      
               Missing 10K            01/01/70 00:00      
                  More caps            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Where?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Parallel            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Does it work now?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Yes, it works fine            01/01/70 00:00      
               Theoretical work missed            01/01/70 00:00      
   Fatal Error!            01/01/70 00:00      
      Another article to peruse            01/01/70 00:00      
         Another one...            01/01/70 00:00      
            same application            01/01/70 00:00      
               Sorry            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Why sorry?            01/01/70 00:00      
            That's exactly what I want to do            01/01/70 00:00      
            which one is the best way?            01/01/70 00:00      
               Capacitors            01/01/70 00:00      
                  i've got it            01/01/70 00:00      
   not the best solution            01/01/70 00:00      
      Laser ranging            01/01/70 00:00      
         how much            01/01/70 00:00      
      I've withdrawn from the competition            01/01/70 00:00      
         NOT finance            01/01/70 00:00      
            Re: money is not everything            01/01/70 00:00      
               Good Luck            01/01/70 00:00      
               good luck            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Good luck            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Thanks!            01/01/70 00:00      
                        The noise again            01/01/70 00:00      
                           re:link            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Link            01/01/70 00:00      
                              this is the link            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 re:noise            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    5-14 Khz            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       re:5-14kHz            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          The Noise Amplitude            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 gain            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    the problem is gain            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Schematic            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Thank You but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Thank You but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       1/4Watt is enough            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Simulation result            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Strange plots...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                How about Compensation?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Not needed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Bigger Pulse            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Bridge configuration can help            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            The same circuit but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               ...but much stronger            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  I have tried            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     What do you mean by ripple?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        The ripple            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           No, it is not. The output from a logic            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Answer            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Yup Kai            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 It's to adjust oscillating frequency            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Finished            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Exams VS academic            01/01/70 00:00      
                           "Plan B"            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Universities in HongKong            01/01/70 00:00      

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