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???
11/16/05 13:17
Modified:
  11/16/05 13:29

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#103791 - Can you see the difference?
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Chris said:
To me this sounds like an objection to the use of fail-safe biasing in general, rather than an issue with the way I have proposed to only drive the line low.

Not at all, fail safe biasing helps a lot, remember what I wrote in my first post:

Kai said:
The fail safe feature of modern RS485 recievers is only good for giving them a chance of detecting, that the cable is disconnected or eventually, with some luck, that the master is powered-off.

Let's discuss a RS485 loop consisting of one driver and one reciever:
If the cable isn't connected to the reciever then you get a potential difference of U(a-b) = 0.48V due to the fail safe biasing, assuming that the fail safe biasing network is located at the reciever input and consists of two 560 Ohm resistors connected from the lines to supply rails and a 120 Ohm resistor between the lines. In this case no relevant noise exists at input of reciever and the reciever provides a stable, non-toggling output, telling the user that something is wrong with the R485 loop, means that the cable is disconnected from the reciever.
If the master is powered off, but cable is still connected, on the other hand, then you get a potential difference between the lines of only U(a-b) = 0.25V, due to the second 120 Ohm resistor at the driver. And, noise can be superimposed and it's not guaranteed that output of reciever keeps non-toggling. Then, the user might not reliably see that something is wrong with the RS485 loop.

Or by other words:
Regular signal of RS485 loop is about U(a-b) = +2V and U(b-a) = -2V. But what you plan to do is to provide a signal of U(a-b) = +0.25V and U(b-a) = -2V. Now take into consideration that input threshold voltage of reciever can range between -0.2V and +0.2V, with an hysteresis of only 70mV. So, what if input threshold voltage of your individual reciever chip is just +0.2V? How much noise margin will you have with the fail safe biasing "signal" then? Only terrible 0.25V - 0.2V = 0.05V! What noise margin will you have with regular signal? 2V - 0.2V = 1.8V!
So, with your driving methode you will decrease the standard noise margin from 1.8V down to 0.05V, means you end up with only 2.8% of standard noise margin!

Kai

List of 34 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
RS485 Question            01/01/70 00:00      
   drive capacity            01/01/70 00:00      
      3 resistor termination            01/01/70 00:00      
         Only if you have power to burn            01/01/70 00:00      
            15 milliwatts. A lot of power?            01/01/70 00:00      
               Depends on your application            01/01/70 00:00      
                  how are you going to terminate at that            01/01/70 00:00      
                  RS485 loops are hungry...            01/01/70 00:00      
      You will loose all the noise margin!            01/01/70 00:00      
         not if you use 3 resistor termination            01/01/70 00:00      
            Better, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
               works for me, what do you have that is b            01/01/70 00:00      
                  No disagree...look what weird is planned            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Kai, I did not think you did            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Clarification            01/01/70 00:00      
                           3 resistors or not            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Then is all fail-safe bad?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Can you see the difference?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Kai, you keep ignoring the fact that RS4            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       I ignore nothing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          It's the best we have and it works when            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Yes, but it can fail from time to time            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                I have handled that with isolated RS485            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   We do already            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      485-422            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         I challenge you to find a RS422 driver            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            In the past.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 All fail safe is good and 0.25V is plent            01/01/70 00:00      
                           That is not RS485, that is J1708            01/01/70 00:00      
                              trick to get around pseudo non random            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 This won't really help.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Helpful            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I am doing that using the Dallas DS2401            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Yes that is what I am planning            01/01/70 00:00      

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