??? 09/11/07 17:22 Read: times |
#144385 - I have only my own experience ... Responding to: ???'s previous message |
Kai Klaas said:
Richard said:
Is it possible that this problem stems from the fact that the MCU is from ATMEL? Haha, it was only a question of time that you would formulate this... No, Richard, in this forum there's a long history about failings with breadboards, not at all to do only with ATMEL's micros. Also, I don't think that it necessarily has to do with the oscillators traces. I think the whole set-up is improper, especially the power supply decoupling. I have to agree that it's not likely that the manufacturer is at fault here. However, I'd mention that, in the 35 years or so that I've been fooling around with this sort of thing, I've had exactly one component with built-in crystal oscillator fail to oscillate. That was in the last 5 years, and I'll invite you to guess which manufacturer produced it. If the ATMEL folks had rotated the die 90 degrees counterclockwise in the lead frame, the pinout would have been much more conducive to a good oscillator layout, however. The crystal connections would have been on pins 9 and 10, so the crystal could have been mounted at the pin 10 and 11 end of the IC, and GND from pin 15 would easily route to the two cap's attached to the crystal. Marketing probably devised the DIP pinout. Richard said:
I do recall, however, that we were able to get crystal oscillators to work just fine back in the days when we allowed 5-10 cm traces between the crystal and the active components. No, that's too long. I know of several cases, where more than 1...2cm resulted in problems. Not only caused by the inductance of traces, but also by the current loop formed and the associated radiation. If you are lucky, your design with the 10cm long traces might work, but all application notes, dataheets and other papers demand shortest traces! I would heavily recommend the use of shortest traces for the whole oscillator section. By the way, with your 10cm design you would heavily fail the CE radiation test!!! You're right, in that 10 cm is entirely too long. That places the crystal and/or cap's 2 inches away from the MCU's pins. However, it happened often enough and, when it did, it seems to have worked out OK. You're right, too, in that 10 cm at over 10 MHz would radiate quite a bit, hence wouldn't pass current EMC standards, but we didn't have them in the mid-'70's. Richard said:
I'm still thoroughly convinced that the problem lies in (1) the use of the solderless breadboard, and (2) the integrity of the connections between oscillator components, i.e, cap's, crystal, and MCU. Rubem was just reporting, that his breadboard design works, but the PCB version fails. So, what about that? So far, one of the things on which we certainly agree is that solderless breadboards are a poor choice of prototyping environments for MCU's and for circuits operating at frequencies far above the audio range. Richard said:
The fact that the "breadboard" circuit changes its behavior from day to day shouldn't surprise anyone. No circuit built on one of these is entirely static. Yes, breadboards are entirely unsuited for high speed designs or fast digital circuits, because they don't allow the use of a solid ground plane but introduce lots of complex impedances. Rubem must show us his layout to be able to find the cause of his problems. More, we could recommend him a suited layout, what I tried to do in an earlier post. True enough, but now there's an additional question, namely what the difference between the two "breadboard" circuits is. Since a change in the wind direction, seismic activity, or phase of the moon can alter the characteristics of a "solderless breadboard" circuit, I doubt much can be learned from this. I basically disagree with the notion that "solderless breadboards" are unsuitable for digital circuits, but I freely admit that their behavior is very much affected by the "solderless breadboard". Even with properly terminated low-impedance signals using ECL, you can observe the interaction of adjacent signals at frequencies above 10 MHz. With high-impedance circuits, e.g. ACMOS at 40 MHz, I've observed state changes repeatedly occurring when I passed my hand between the circuit under examination and an adjacent computer display. At frequencies well within the audio range, ~10 KHz, one can observe the interaction between adjacent signal paths within the "solderless breadboard" without even increasing the amplification of the signal on the 'scope display. After all, the contact-contact capacitance, at least on my "solderless breadboards" from Continental Specialties, is purported to be typically 5 pF and the capacitance of the probe is not much more than that (~8 pf). Kai |