Email: Password: Remember Me | Create Account (Free)

Back to Subject List

Old thread has been locked -- no new posts accepted in this thread
???
04/09/07 18:39
Read: times


 
#136867 - the cost of copying
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Now, let me put forth, contrary to Michael Karas, I don't think we need to discuss the case when the micro is left unlocked at all - nobody is THAT naive.

Whether copying is legal, makes sense or not - all this is irrelevant once it happens. And it DOES happen. Fullstop.

The only question is the cost of copying. It might come as a surprise for some, but the general purpose micros which are around for some time can be unlocked in a snap, and the cost might be as low as a few hundred $s (I was once told, that a typical pricelist for such "services" starts at $99 for notoriously known bad protection devices such as some of the the PIC16's).

This price can be slightly increased by using a rarely used microcontroller, using a combination of features in the whole product which increase the cost of copying. Although it sounds desperate, in some cases physical destruction (including zapping) of pins needed for programming might make sense, although it undoubtedly might influence reliability - nevertheless, this might not matter (e.g. in toys or other devices with short expected lifetime and easy replacement). One of other desperate attempts is potting the microcontroller or the whole product. Other schemes involve batteries and volatile RAMs. Yet another schemes involve EPROM (OTP) or ROM based products.

Now one needs to calculate with this price, when making a product. Sometimes it is easy to avoid troubles with copying at all (e.g. providing a product to a single trusted customer), but in some "business models" it cannot be simply avoided. The developer simply MUST be aware of the problem.

The trouble is, that no manufacturer admits a low price of copying publicly - but on the other hand, many of them (Atmel including) make devices much better protected, but for a dedicated market (namely smartcards is one of the best known).

So, I think, there is no need to tabooize the problem nor to neglect it. I think this is the right forum to talk about it...

Jan Waclawek

PS. Unlocking pre-1998 AT89C2051 is a piece of cake, I'd not give even $99 for it... :-)


List of 56 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
89C2051 unlocked and copied            01/01/70 00:00      
   You'll prolly find that the have set the security            01/01/70 00:00      
   CPU Compare            01/01/70 00:00      
   Unlock at89c2051            01/01/70 00:00      
      Proof            01/01/70 00:00      
   Close But Far Away            01/01/70 00:00      
      Several Steps for the Next Product            01/01/70 00:00      
         might I suggest...            01/01/70 00:00      
            anything else would be outright silly.            01/01/70 00:00      
         please explain            01/01/70 00:00      
            try this            01/01/70 00:00      
   an idea            01/01/70 00:00      
      I dont know how this is going.....            01/01/70 00:00      
         the cost of copying            01/01/70 00:00      
            It makes little sense ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Too optimistic ?            01/01/70 00:00      
            another way??            01/01/70 00:00      
            I beg to differ....            01/01/70 00:00      
               protection *scheme*?            01/01/70 00:00      
               I absolutely agree, Michael            01/01/70 00:00      
            COPYING YOUR PROGRAM...            01/01/70 00:00      
               OR            01/01/70 00:00      
      easily fixed with a soldering iron            01/01/70 00:00      
   Some ideas            01/01/70 00:00      
   re:copied software            01/01/70 00:00      
      find out if you want to prove if the code is assem            01/01/70 00:00      
         Excellent point!            01/01/70 00:00      
      legit or not            01/01/70 00:00      
      Re: Re: Copied software            01/01/70 00:00      
         A guess            01/01/70 00:00      
   Are you sure            01/01/70 00:00      
      Am I a pirate?            01/01/70 00:00      
         In the US            01/01/70 00:00      
            I don't understand part            01/01/70 00:00      
               The story of Compac Computer.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  an example of legal reverse engineering            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Would this be an example legal reverse engineering            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I can't tell            01/01/70 00:00      
                           find out what the purpose of a patent is            01/01/70 00:00      
   You still did not answer question            01/01/70 00:00      
   Copied software            01/01/70 00:00      
      copying            01/01/70 00:00      
      You cant prove anything            01/01/70 00:00      
   copying products            01/01/70 00:00      
      Sad            01/01/70 00:00      
         but true ...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Copying From School Days            01/01/70 00:00      
            What they can do            01/01/70 00:00      
   Oops! See next message!            01/01/70 00:00      
   Style can help            01/01/70 00:00      
   There IS a way to survive            01/01/70 00:00      
      Support, support, support!            01/01/70 00:00      
         You're right, of course, but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Nothing more annoying ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Yes, if this is the only "support" he gets from you...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Well, there is support and then there's handholding            01/01/70 00:00      

Back to Subject List