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???
02/11/08 20:30
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#150616 - that's not what was asked ...
Responding to: ???'s previous message
... which, I'm sure, doesn't surprise anyone ...

Erik Malund said:
When I checked 'the numbers', which I, of course, did, they were way beyond satisfactory.

As opposed to the practice in the Erlacher lab, we verify that our design is beyond satisfactory and hold that for enough of a qualifier.

Unless you make statistical observations [incoming inspection] of the products you buy for use in your end-product, I don't see how you can verify anything. It's only those observations that I asked about.

I have no intention whatsoever to go in and remeasure anything just to satisfy the curiosity of a certain Mr. Erlacher.

All I asked was information. Presumably, you have, at some point, verified that the devices you use actually meet their advertised specifications.

Your original question was, as I hinted, utterly stupid. What is the ripple? that of course depend on your filtering, The 'raw' ripple is totally irrelevant, more 'raw' ripple - more filtering, less 'raw' ripple - less filtering, the result is the same. Do you REALLY want me to experiment with different filtering just to satisfy you?

Nope ... what I wanted was a reading on how well the commercial switcher performs, particularly as compared with its spec's. You know ... "raw" ripple at 10% of rated capacity ... "raw" ripple at 90% of rated capacity ...

Also the question about power off was identically stupid. Whatever regulation you use, at power off, you empty the reservoir, whatever kind of regulation you have.

... <sigh> ... If only it were that simple. Small switchers generally have an input filter and an output filter, and the units that take AC input have a transformer and filter input, too. As these decay, which happens when the power is turned off, they behave in different ways, certainly not as simply as you describe. Further, it certainly is different from a linear regulator, as I'm sure you can imagine.

If you want to get numbers buy a PowerTrends switcher (they are very good) and start experimenting, it seems you like 'experimenting' whether there is a reason to or not.

Now a footnote:
I inherited a 'homemade' switcher, what a piece of (word omitted to keep post from being moderated out) and after replacing several thousand boards with an otherwise identical board with a PowerTrends switcher the problems went away. Note 'the problems' had avalance effect and the typical warranty repair was in the $1000 range.

My experience tells me that anything with a switcher that is 'designed' by someone without years of experience in switcher design will be a load of .... . Thus if your comments on switchers are based on your designs they are, in my opinion, invalid. Nothing personal, see above.

Erik


I generally don't build my own switchers, though I have done that. I have, however, never encountered even ONE small switcher, on the order of 1 ampere output rating or less, that was (a) actually capable of what its datasheet claimed, and (b) was satisfactory for use with any serious MCU application. I've tried premade boards, modules, etc. They're all, IMHO, WAY too noisy, and regulate far too poorly under conditions of changing load.

Now, you've stated that you use the switching regulator as a pre-regulator for your primary Vcc (3V3) and that's probably a good thing, but I'm curious what YOU have found, since you use these products all the time.

I don't use small switchers, and haven't examined available small commercial switchers in quite some time, but might be taking another look in the near future. I do sometimes use wall-warts as a raw unregulated input to on-board regulators, though I have, in the past, been pretty disappointed with them, too. Since almost all my serious 805x contact is in systems that have existed for 15 years or longer, all of which, so far, have had significant linear supplies on hand, I certainly haven't concerned myself with the use of switchers with 805x's.

I don't, at least so far, care about the filtering you apply. Since you use these small switchers, I figured you could shed some light on what they actually do. What I like or dislike, or what I consider adequate or inadequate, is not really germane to the question. I'm just curious about the observations you've made, and not just about the published claims.

BTW, I do use switchers when practical, just not small ones. Fewer and fewer applications demand the 80 to 100-ampere multi-output supply, though, and fewer and fewer of them tolerate the switching noise ...

RE







List of 58 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
problems with edge triggering and noise            01/01/70 00:00      
   5v regulator,capacitors - elko and creamic            01/01/70 00:00      
      not likely            01/01/70 00:00      
         not true!            01/01/70 00:00      
   How much noise?            01/01/70 00:00      
      using a 78L05 voltage regulator IC with 220 uF cap            01/01/70 00:00      
         be conservative ... for now ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   First things first - Begin at the beginning            01/01/70 00:00      
      yes i agree..            01/01/70 00:00      
         photo            01/01/70 00:00      
            Well done            01/01/70 00:00      
               the "backside" :)            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Use Solder Wick as Braid            01/01/70 00:00      
                     is this ok?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        i found this strange looking woven wire?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Perf Board Types            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Pad-Per-Hole PTH            01/01/70 00:00      
                     How much ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        This Much            01/01/70 00:00      
                           other boards            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Here\'s what I prefer.            01/01/70 00:00      
            it looks quite acceptable, with caveats ...            01/01/70 00:00      
      How much noise!            01/01/70 00:00      
   Regulator problems..            01/01/70 00:00      
      sorry wrong measurements            01/01/70 00:00      
         Actuall, you were right, in part ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Different caps..            01/01/70 00:00      
      one more issue            01/01/70 00:00      
         7805            01/01/70 00:00      
            Swop the pins around !!            01/01/70 00:00      
            agreed            01/01/70 00:00      
               what about switching noise and ripple?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  to RE            01/01/70 00:00      
                     This is a real disappointment            01/01/70 00:00      
                        numbers            01/01/70 00:00      
                           that's not what was asked ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              yes and no            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I've got lots of those ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    not mostly - only and who cares            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       It's what's before the filter that matters!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          enough            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             not exactly ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                as stated before            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Nonsense!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      you can't stop, can you            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         I love to see Erik backpedal            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Better start giving a hoot            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               as stated so often, I DO give a hoot ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  as stated so often, I DO give a hoot ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     I think you are right            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        I too favour looking inside black boxes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           blindly?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Erik ... you\'re headed for a disappointment            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 If you accept datasheet blindly I cant help            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    you do not get the point, do you?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     not exactly            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        I never made any such claim            01/01/70 00:00      
         gee ... that's a negative regulator ...            01/01/70 00:00      

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