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Thread Closed: Became flame-war

???
08/01/08 17:24
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#157229 - It's a tradeoff
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Erik Malund said:
...some of Richards "it must ALL be documented before ..." are very important for consulting, but in a regular job, the reality is, you should be happy if the spec you work from is 80% right. Richard is adamant "do what the boss tell you to do" and I have, outside consulting, never experienced a full spec from "when the boss told us to" start.


That's probably true ... sadly ... and it's probably the reason many people in senior positions in larger corporations still see the "software guys" as a pool of t-shirt-wearing, Jolt-drinking, sneaker-wearing, pot-smoking chimpanzees rather than as engineers.

Now, I won't debate the merits of what one wears, drinks, or smokes, but it does point out that working from incomplete spec's is what has defined software engineering as an oxymoron for decades.

It's true that it's difficult to get firm spec's from anyone who wants something done. I deal with that all the time. It's also true that one can't complete a job, or define the nebulous notion that "it works" until someone specifies a firm, verifiable, and testable definition. If you're building one of those ATMEL-targeted "kitchen table" programmers, where it doesn't matter if the thing works more than once in ten attempts, then maybe one can be a bit forgiving in the need for formal requirements documentation. After all, nobody wants to admit that "works once in a while" is good enough, though it seems to satisfy ATMEL users well enough.

If you want to design something, however, you have to start with a specification of the problem it is supposed to address. If you can't do that, you can't design a solution to the problem, because you don't know what the problem is, hence, you don't know when it has been solved.

If I had to wait until "it works" is satisfied before being paid for my efforts, I'd be a lot thinner. That's a moving target! If it has to meet these conditions under these circumstances, this many times out of this number of repetitions, then I know what I have to do.

When a client approaches me with a poorly specified task, I first get him to pay for the development of a firm, precise, and agreed-upon specification before work begins. He'll cry and complain, but as his deadline approaches, he'll see the value in it, and we'll have a set of spec's that ensures he knows, in advance, what he'll get, and I know, in advance, when the job is done, and when I get my money.m If somebody else will let him get away with looser specifications, well, then somebody else can do that piece of work. My clients know I won't willingly clean up somebody else's mess without charging a significant premium. If I were his employee, I'd not worry about that ... after all he's paying for my time, so it's his to waste.

RE





List of 73 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
ATMEL AT89C52 Help?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Info            01/01/70 00:00      
      you are ignoring \'the standard\' and the fast            01/01/70 00:00      
         Not ignoring            01/01/70 00:00      
            it does not, but            01/01/70 00:00      
      Anyone want to write simple program for chip for u            01/01/70 00:00      
         \"a few hours\"???            01/01/70 00:00      
         No as simple as you may think            01/01/70 00:00      
            reply            01/01/70 00:00      
               Let's start at the beginning            01/01/70 00:00      
   A Serial Flash chip would be easier            01/01/70 00:00      
   Specification?            01/01/70 00:00      
      what about a "community project"?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Has anyone offered complete C++ for 805x?            01/01/70 00:00      
            yes??            01/01/70 00:00      
               Subset            01/01/70 00:00      
            Would Object Oriented Techniques Be Of Advantage?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Reply specs.            01/01/70 00:00      
         More specifications (and less)            01/01/70 00:00      
            Additional specs. Can you do it?            01/01/70 00:00      
               16 temperature inputs, relay outputs.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  problem is in software            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Lets first choose a chip.            01/01/70 00:00      
                        how many are you going to make?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        It is not just a voltage            01/01/70 00:00      
                  We want to keep it simple            01/01/70 00:00      
         MicroManagement ...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Narrowing it down            01/01/70 00:00      
            More specs again            01/01/70 00:00      
               ATMEL AT89C52            01/01/70 00:00      
                  More hw info needed            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Ok. thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Don't assume. Don't "let's say". Go specific!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  dtraight from the horses mouth            01/01/70 00:00      
               Be Specific            01/01/70 00:00      
            shameless self-advertisement            01/01/70 00:00      
               Hi Jan, some user guide?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  documentation... is always a pain... ;-)            01/01/70 00:00      
                     sometimes "hobby projects" are better off            01/01/70 00:00      
                        what's that?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           a techwriter is            01/01/70 00:00      
                              oh I see            01/01/70 00:00      
                           The REAL issue with documentation            01/01/70 00:00      
                              ever done a hobby project, Richard? ;-)            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 not since the '60's ... well, maybe the '70's            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    well, IMHO, hobby projects are exactly the opposite...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       remember the reference to Ultramon51?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          the reward of hobbyist            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             the hobbyist does not need formal documents            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                hobbyist????            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             hobbyist - beginner            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                It's a tradeoff            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Target goals and check lists            01/01/70 00:00      
                              naah            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Smaller companies have to run fast            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    the sad thing is            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Progress            01/01/70 00:00      
                     program interpreted from i2c eeprom?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        possible, but why?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Waiting for first proposal for whole project?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Waiting for complete and precise requirements            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Lets keep on track.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    A joke?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Well said            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       FOR SHAME !!!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Taunting?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          You asked            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          There are AND gates that might work            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Posible            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Well ... depending on the relay ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Useful for others?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Off track? Not at all! Tell us what you want ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   shematic 1            01/01/70 00:00      

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