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???
11/13/07 02:32
Modified:
  11/13/07 02:43

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#146915 - About naked firefighters...
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Farshad said:
I've provided solid-ground return paths as much as possible in a two layer board.

That's a contradiction in terms! You cannot provide a solid ground plane "as much as possible". A solid ground plane, by definition, is a complete and entire plane without any interruptions, gaps or holes. That's what the word "solid" implies. What you provide is wide ground traces, but not a solid ground plane. That's something totally different.

Farshad said:
I was cautious to let all ICs have a solid and low-impedance return to ground and fill the empty area between traces with ground layer.

This cannot cure the absence of a solid ground plane. More, if the ground fills aren't connected to the solid ground plane by many many vias, you get even more trouble.

Farshad said:
The amount of EMI emitted by the board itself is trivial.

Have you measured the emitted EMI? Even only one 74HCMOS gate's output signal not routed properly over a solid ground plane can make you fail the CE radiation test!

Farshad said:
That's correct. Maybe not in magnitude of 100 to 1,...

Yes, maybe even higher!

Farshad said:
It's not fair to call any 2 layer board as improper design.

It's entirely fair to state this, because you will hardly pass the CE radiation test when using a two layer board. Farshad, this is even difficult for a multilayer board design, when cables are involved, which leave the board. I exactly know about what I'm talking, because this is my daily job.

Farshad, your problems are related to an improper design (which is improper because of the trouble you observed). Like Russell stated, this has not only to do with the PCB, but with the whole wiring scheme and other issues. But I can tell you, that using a two layer board without a solid ground plane will hardly make you solve the problems. The customer might move the board some centimeters from its actual position, or route one cable somewhere else, and problems will arise again.

You need a solid ground plane as a radio frequency plane for the cable shields and input/output filters, as an extremely low impedant reference plane to reduce the common mode noise, and as extremely low impedant path for all ground return currents. Remember, you no longer play electrostatics with digital boards but you enter the field of electrodynamics, where the signal traces and the solid ground plane form transmission lines for all digital signal and supply currents. Through your wiring wave packets are running, needing the solid ground plane for proper termination.

A board with solid ground plane is an universe more powerful, than any two layer board design. I would instantly lose my job, if I would begin to use two layer boards for our embedded products.

It would have been one thing if you had stated, that your setup isn't immune to EMI, and how to correct this. But, to mention that the micro seems to be more sensitive to EMI than the earlier one isn't the proper way to argue at all. YOU decide how much EMI the micro has to withstand, by suited measures, like grounding, shielding and filtering (which need the solid ground plane to work properly!). You can suppress EMI by nearly any amount you want.

Have you ever seen a naked firefighter battling against the fire??

Kai

List of 88 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Atmel 89 Series and EMI            01/01/70 00:00      
   FAQ            01/01/70 00:00      
      Thanks, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
         yes it is            01/01/70 00:00      
            EMI design consideration...            01/01/70 00:00      
               reset pulses?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Finally a note to the OP            01/01/70 00:00      
                     well, sometimes...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Fire Extinguisher            01/01/70 00:00      
                        extinguisher            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Latched-up CMOS!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     logic, and beyond            01/01/70 00:00      
                     not a cure            01/01/70 00:00      
   EMI Design            01/01/70 00:00      
      restated in one sentence            01/01/70 00:00      
         Don't jump to the conclusion...            01/01/70 00:00      
            then just say "outside the specs, no can do"            01/01/70 00:00      
      Thanks...            01/01/70 00:00      
   What PCB do you use?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Two Layer            01/01/70 00:00      
         No surprise, then!            01/01/70 00:00      
            Ground...            01/01/70 00:00      
               About naked firefighters...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Absolutely it is fair            01/01/70 00:00      
   Some advice            01/01/70 00:00      
      Yes, it's a bunch of measures...            01/01/70 00:00      
      Good points.            01/01/70 00:00      
         No, no, no,....            01/01/70 00:00      
            Remember            01/01/70 00:00      
         CMOS Latch up            01/01/70 00:00      
         NOPE            01/01/70 00:00      
            You think so...            01/01/70 00:00      
               No, it is not            01/01/70 00:00      
               A proper design would stand it!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Proper design            01/01/70 00:00      
                     some of my definitions            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Me thinks...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        the real point            01/01/70 00:00      
            More advice            01/01/70 00:00      
               Does that mean, that...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  It's the designers responsibility            01/01/70 00:00      
                     No joke, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  EMI and 2 layers            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Yes, for tiny projects...            01/01/70 00:00      
               that something is possible/done succesfully            01/01/70 00:00      
   Show us your design...            01/01/70 00:00      
      Why? You want to make fun of it? :)            01/01/70 00:00      
         Or            01/01/70 00:00      
            You mean...            01/01/70 00:00      
               I do not know what Steve ment            01/01/70 00:00      
               Yes !            01/01/70 00:00      
         how about a schematic            01/01/70 00:00      
            Relays            01/01/70 00:00      
               Even then...            01/01/70 00:00      
         From what I can see            01/01/70 00:00      
            Mostly agree.            01/01/70 00:00      
               Layers, layouts...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  are you serious, or did you forget            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Sorry, I forgot...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Is it good?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Just a few points.            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I believe you!            01/01/70 00:00      
                        No harm, usually            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Separate Ground Planes            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Inter-plane coupling            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Cable entry point            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
            what I do ..            01/01/70 00:00      
            half measures            01/01/70 00:00      
            Taking notes...            01/01/70 00:00      
               the downfall of many            01/01/70 00:00      
               Do some tests            01/01/70 00:00      
                  This can be deadly!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Deadly?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I'm sorry...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Farshad, I would never make fun of it!            01/01/70 00:00      
            Very Informative            01/01/70 00:00      
               Decoupling            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Thank you!            01/01/70 00:00      
               and not a word about 4 layers            01/01/70 00:00      
   paralelling            01/01/70 00:00      
      Why not using 10µF/10V/X5S ceramics?            01/01/70 00:00      
   more information?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Schematics would not be very "helpfil"            01/01/70 00:00      
      More information            01/01/70 00:00      
      The best stuff I have ever seen is...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Sorry, I forgot, that you must suscribe first...            01/01/70 00:00      
      John, I have seen....            01/01/70 00:00      

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