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???
11/19/07 16:48
Modified:
  11/19/07 16:52

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#147195 - Inter-plane coupling
Responding to: ???'s previous message
David said:
On your suggestion of using another plane for a high current or noisy ground, rather than splitting a single groundplane - wouldn't that be counterproductive? If there are two parallel planes, I'd have thought that at high frequencies, the large capacitive coupling would make them perform as one. This would ruin the point of separating them, surely?
At least splitting a single plane minimizes inter-plane coupling.

You are entirely right, two adjacent planes show a heavy capacitive cross coupling and when using separate layers to isolate currents and potentials from each other you should also put a shielding ground plane between them, when HF (high frequency) signals are involved.
If you have a HF carrying copper trace running in a separate layer and put two adjacent ground planes to it, then a transmission line is formed keeping all the magnetic field inside the gaps between these three planes, like you can see it with every coax cable. The room outside of the adjacent planes is free of electric and magnetic fields. You will only see something, if the impedance of planes is high enough to introduce some ohmic voltage drop, which can happen, if you route very high currents. But in usual applications the surrounding by adjacent ground planes forms an effective shield. Even the supply planes can provide this shielding, but then lots of supply decoupling caps distributed over the whole plane must exist.

I am in touch with EMI testers from time to time, and one day they showed me a board, that couldn't pass the CE tests. It was an inverter with a solid ground plane. A very high and noisy current was also using the solid ground plane and generated so much common mode noise on the entire ground plane, that the cables were always radiating too much. Only, when they diverted a certain area from the ground plane for this noisy current, which means a kind of splitting of ground plane the radiated EMI was ok. Here, it wasn't so much the HF content, but more the height in Ampères, which caused the EMI.

Splitting the ground plane, on the other hand, doesn't really work for highest frequencies. The gap becomes rather low impedant due to the stray capacitance between the two splitted planes, because the gap is not so much wide usually. I prefer a 5mm (at least 4mm) gap at the closest point and make it as wide as I can elsewhere.

For audio frequencies and slightly beyond, the splitting of ground plane can be very very helpful. In digital designs you must do some careful anaylsis though (testing, what works best and radiates lowest).

Kai

List of 88 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Atmel 89 Series and EMI            01/01/70 00:00      
   FAQ            01/01/70 00:00      
      Thanks, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
         yes it is            01/01/70 00:00      
            EMI design consideration...            01/01/70 00:00      
               reset pulses?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Finally a note to the OP            01/01/70 00:00      
                     well, sometimes...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Fire Extinguisher            01/01/70 00:00      
                        extinguisher            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Latched-up CMOS!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     logic, and beyond            01/01/70 00:00      
                     not a cure            01/01/70 00:00      
   EMI Design            01/01/70 00:00      
      restated in one sentence            01/01/70 00:00      
         Don't jump to the conclusion...            01/01/70 00:00      
            then just say "outside the specs, no can do"            01/01/70 00:00      
      Thanks...            01/01/70 00:00      
   What PCB do you use?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Two Layer            01/01/70 00:00      
         No surprise, then!            01/01/70 00:00      
            Ground...            01/01/70 00:00      
               About naked firefighters...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Absolutely it is fair            01/01/70 00:00      
   Some advice            01/01/70 00:00      
      Yes, it's a bunch of measures...            01/01/70 00:00      
      Good points.            01/01/70 00:00      
         No, no, no,....            01/01/70 00:00      
            Remember            01/01/70 00:00      
         CMOS Latch up            01/01/70 00:00      
         NOPE            01/01/70 00:00      
            You think so...            01/01/70 00:00      
               No, it is not            01/01/70 00:00      
               A proper design would stand it!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Proper design            01/01/70 00:00      
                     some of my definitions            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Me thinks...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        the real point            01/01/70 00:00      
            More advice            01/01/70 00:00      
               Does that mean, that...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  It's the designers responsibility            01/01/70 00:00      
                     No joke, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  EMI and 2 layers            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Yes, for tiny projects...            01/01/70 00:00      
               that something is possible/done succesfully            01/01/70 00:00      
   Show us your design...            01/01/70 00:00      
      Why? You want to make fun of it? :)            01/01/70 00:00      
         Or            01/01/70 00:00      
            You mean...            01/01/70 00:00      
               I do not know what Steve ment            01/01/70 00:00      
               Yes !            01/01/70 00:00      
         how about a schematic            01/01/70 00:00      
            Relays            01/01/70 00:00      
               Even then...            01/01/70 00:00      
         From what I can see            01/01/70 00:00      
            Mostly agree.            01/01/70 00:00      
               Layers, layouts...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  are you serious, or did you forget            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Sorry, I forgot...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Is it good?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Just a few points.            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I believe you!            01/01/70 00:00      
                        No harm, usually            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Separate Ground Planes            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Inter-plane coupling            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Cable entry point            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
            what I do ..            01/01/70 00:00      
            half measures            01/01/70 00:00      
            Taking notes...            01/01/70 00:00      
               the downfall of many            01/01/70 00:00      
               Do some tests            01/01/70 00:00      
                  This can be deadly!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Deadly?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I'm sorry...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Farshad, I would never make fun of it!            01/01/70 00:00      
            Very Informative            01/01/70 00:00      
               Decoupling            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Thank you!            01/01/70 00:00      
               and not a word about 4 layers            01/01/70 00:00      
   paralelling            01/01/70 00:00      
      Why not using 10µF/10V/X5S ceramics?            01/01/70 00:00      
   more information?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Schematics would not be very "helpfil"            01/01/70 00:00      
      More information            01/01/70 00:00      
      The best stuff I have ever seen is...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Sorry, I forgot, that you must suscribe first...            01/01/70 00:00      
      John, I have seen....            01/01/70 00:00      

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