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???
03/28/05 11:43
Modified:
  03/28/05 11:49

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#90526 - many reasons
Responding to: ???'s previous message
I have seen many reasons over the years why the microcontroller on-board circuitry for reset and brownout circuits does not work well. I could list out some of technical reasons but, as I said before, Prahlad has illustrated some of them already.

I can add however the following comments:

- The "digital" type circuitry used to make processor chips is often not particularly suited to making circuits that require precise design margins and tight thresold voltage compliance.

- The process control needed to build a microcontroller must be more loosey-goosey to achieve a reasonable yield due to the large variation of circuit parameters across a complex chip. A small chip of specific function can achieve reasonable yield with much tighter control of process parameters.

- Smaller companies with a focus on special needs market places are producing needed technologies. One example is reset and voltage supervisor chips for which they devise designs and processes for building such chips that may include things that are just not feasible for larger more dense chips. One example is the use of lasers to "trim" or "configure" a chip.

- The engineers that design chips are just as human as those that design PCBA's. Mistakes are made and scope of experience may be limited. I have over 30+ years uncovered numerous chip bugs that can be attributed to "human error". Just because a circuit is encased inside a moulded lump of black stuff does not mean that it is any more robust than any other circuit design.

With all that said I'll comment that it is possible today that there may be some manufacturers that are making microcontrollers that have very good on-board reset generators and on-board brownout detectors. But just because a company may demonstrate proficiency in making both microcontrollers and separate supervisor chips does not mean that the expertise from the left side of the brain gets utilized on the right side of the same brain.

So . . . accepting that it may be possible that some reliable chips have emerged I'll have to say that on MY projects I do not want to have to be the one to discover if this is true or not. My own accumulated experience over the years says that one place that I must pay close attention to is in the area of reliable reset generation and avoidance of software running amuck on a chip that is operating outside its specification limits. That has to include the concerns of chips that have on board programming and debugging circuits since marginal behavior can make very undesirable things happen. Thus every design I make or have a hand in will include a reset generator with reliable and precise voltage level detection and management. This design strategy works toward making reliable products that work well and do not need to be pulled back and re-worked and re-worked. For me as a product developer and the clients that I work for it is more profitable to be in the fast lane of the expressway rather than on the side of the road with a flat tire.

I am sure that there are some engineers that come to this embedded game with a less conservative viewpoint or apply a design strategy to "trust" chips more. This is fine and I wish well to all those that have success discovering if one chip or another is reliable in its RESET and BROWNOUT capabilities. But I must ask those same engineers if they are going to experiment with leaving board designs on two layers without ground planes and with no bypass capacitors.


Michael Karas




List of 124 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
What do you think could happen if...            01/01/70 00:00      
   The 10k from RST to GND            01/01/70 00:00      
   Random resets..            01/01/70 00:00      
      Dogma.            01/01/70 00:00      
         Oh yea ?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Hmm            01/01/70 00:00      
            brown outs            01/01/70 00:00      
               Obscure            01/01/70 00:00      
                  RC Reset circuits.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Something more to it ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        ad wars between Maxim and Microchip            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Cutting teeth...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              recommend brown out detectors            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Which depends on for what..            01/01/70 00:00      
                              built-in reset            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Re: Built in brown out?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Better than I did....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Thanks, Michael.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Why            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Other stuff ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       many reasons            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Thats not correct.            01/01/70 00:00      
                        speak with forked tongue            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I agree            01/01/70 00:00      
         re: dogma            01/01/70 00:00      
      ESD events and EMI            01/01/70 00:00      
   Re: Random resets.            01/01/70 00:00      
   Lets not reject the obvious!            01/01/70 00:00      
      no R            01/01/70 00:00      
      RC-circuits are bullshit!!            01/01/70 00:00      
         RC-circuits are bullshit!!            01/01/70 00:00      
   Reset Capacitor            01/01/70 00:00      
      You missed the question!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Why guessing?            01/01/70 00:00      
            RE:Why Guessing            01/01/70 00:00      
               Timing            01/01/70 00:00      
   Update            01/01/70 00:00      
      not necessarily the reset            01/01/70 00:00      
         Other derivatives            01/01/70 00:00      
            if no cap            01/01/70 00:00      
               No Cap            01/01/70 00:00      
                  not just a cap, but the right cap            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Which cap?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        depends            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Yes Cap            01/01/70 00:00      
                        directly            01/01/70 00:00      
                           RE:Directly            01/01/70 00:00      
                              yes            01/01/70 00:00      
         Absolutely !            01/01/70 00:00      
   Update - ESD Problem?            01/01/70 00:00      
      some ways            01/01/70 00:00      
         some ways - more detail please            01/01/70 00:00      
            details            01/01/70 00:00      
               Car induction coil            01/01/70 00:00      
                  ESD Problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Physical Separation            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Few Ideas            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Re: Few Ideas            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Check your external ground            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Ya.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     now that you are willing            01/01/70 00:00      
                        RE:Now that you are willing            01/01/70 00:00      
                           alot easier when you know what your look            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Not as bad as initially thought.            01/01/70 00:00      
                        ground loop            01/01/70 00:00      
                           RE: Ground Loop            01/01/70 00:00      
                              sound            01/01/70 00:00      
                           RE: Ground Loop            01/01/70 00:00      
                              It is a loop AND            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 It's a loop and a flop            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    no shield can help you there            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Kind of machine            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          so your testbench setup should be OK            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Failures            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                in that case            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Materials            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      could still be ground            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Noise resistance            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            you will not find that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               What can be found?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  tough these days            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Glue ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   No Glue            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      lesse some pictures.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         LOL            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Nope            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Let the fun begin!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Confession            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Confession            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Ah.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Not that bad            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              HAr to see but            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Wiring & Filter            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Maybe a little better pictures here            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       nice            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Oops - try again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Uh Oh            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Yep            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Don't ground both ends of shield            01/01/70 00:00      
                        bonding            01/01/70 00:00      
                           RE: Bonding            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Useless....            01/01/70 00:00      
   Better Pix yet?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Re: Better Pics Yet?            01/01/70 00:00      
      DETAILS...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Nothing hiding here!            01/01/70 00:00      
            !!!!!            01/01/70 00:00      
               I don't think so.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  !!            01/01/70 00:00      
            Grounding.            01/01/70 00:00      
               Grounding            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Prahlads points            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Clarification            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Clarification            01/01/70 00:00      
   Update            01/01/70 00:00      
      au contraire            01/01/70 00:00      
   The answer may be on the horizon            01/01/70 00:00      
      not the voltage, but the change            01/01/70 00:00      
         Have a look see            01/01/70 00:00      
            I do not know how good            01/01/70 00:00      
               7805 Starving            01/01/70 00:00      
                  it will go HOT            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Heatsink            01/01/70 00:00      
                        or it's possible            01/01/70 00:00      

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