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???
05/26/06 19:01
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#117161 - you worry too much about piracy
Responding to: ???'s previous message
in this domain, most of the tools are so bad that nobody would use them unless they had to. Remember, we're discussing Windwos-based tools, for the most part.

If there were any effort made to document precisely what the tools are supposed to do BEFORE they're generated, then it would be easy for the author to produce a consistently upgraded set as the software expands in scope. Unfortunately, at least at KEIL, for example, their marketing/advertising grew faster than their software capabilities. These limitations show up in their simulator and, frequently, in the comments their representatives make, regarding the capabilities of their software.

I'm sure the KEIL is an adequate tool for most of its users, but I'm just as sure that there are many people not using it simply because they're disappointed with the difference between the fiction spun by their sales/marketing folks and the realities imposed by their software's limitations.

Some years back, I inquired about the capabilities of the KEIL software, particularly its simulator, in terms of computing timing of their work product. This was in the context of the DS89C420, at that time, and their representative told me that they had full support for that chip. This turned out to be a complete falsehood, though I imagine it's been rectified by now. They didn't know, at the time, that there were significant differences between the 80C320 and the 89C420. That's a simple enough thing, but, they clearly operated on unsupportable assumptions.

Later I was told that it was IMPOSSIBLE to compute the timing of a set of code in a simulator. This is clearly false, since the simulator "knows" WHERE the code is located, and what the timing at that location is, and it "knows" the operating mode of the MCU. I have simulators that readily do that and which easily simulate timer/counter operation as well as other artifacts of the core. They simply didn't want to admit that they had omitted an important and useful feature of the simulator.

One has to praise them, as, at least, they let that bit of information escape BEFORE I had my client buy their software.

If they thoroughly/exhaustively test their software, I agree it would be an added cost for them. They'd pass that along, but they probably don't really care whether their work product really works reliably, so long as it appears so. Microsoft doesn't do any better, and, since that's the platform, why should KEIL go to all that trouble and expense?

To be declared "reliable," the system has to be tested with every possible combination of bits in memory, on the hard disk, and every possible combination of inputs, to whatever limits are specified. That's how they're tested, with the caveat that, presently, the verified depth of memory is 0, the verified capacity of hard disk is 0, and the depth of the i/o stream is 0. Conclusion, the reliability is 0. It still "works" to some extent, even enough to be useful, but it's really not specified, except in those glittering salesman's declarations that are hard to dispute.

RE




List of 58 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
8051 developer tool reputations            01/01/70 00:00      
   Dont forget            01/01/70 00:00      
      re:don't forget            01/01/70 00:00      
         I always think            01/01/70 00:00      
            I agree            01/01/70 00:00      
         Support and Longevity            01/01/70 00:00      
            useful, maybe            01/01/70 00:00      
               Useful            01/01/70 00:00      
                  misunderstanding            01/01/70 00:00      
               Software licences            01/01/70 00:00      
                  this trade union does not permit that            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Software houses should offer refunds            01/01/70 00:00      
                        it works both ways            01/01/70 00:00      
                           you worry too much about piracy            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I do not worry at all            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 no it's not ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    by best estimate            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       That's why there are spec's            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          I think you agree            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             not quite            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                is what you list not "design"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   No, but it must precede each design.            01/01/70 00:00      
                           you worry too much about piracy            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Predictable            01/01/70 00:00      
            Commercial licences and longevity            01/01/70 00:00      
               have not seen that one            01/01/70 00:00      
                  open source            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I know the people "behind" my tools            01/01/70 00:00      
                        free as in freedom            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Lucky you            01/01/70 00:00      
   a few questions            01/01/70 00:00      
      Sorry If I am not clear            01/01/70 00:00      
         an overview            01/01/70 00:00      
         find out and come back to this thread            01/01/70 00:00      
         Emulator for.....            01/01/70 00:00      
            the only one where that can be said            01/01/70 00:00      
            Yes i found that out            01/01/70 00:00      
               learning to swim            01/01/70 00:00      
               if it is            01/01/70 00:00      
                  but we're not using XA            01/01/70 00:00      
   a couple of points            01/01/70 00:00      
      yes well...            01/01/70 00:00      
         what DOS based tools?            01/01/70 00:00      
            a really old keil program i think            01/01/70 00:00      
               I do not know, but ask in the Keil forum            01/01/70 00:00      
               Maybe            01/01/70 00:00      
   summary            01/01/70 00:00      
   Keil and IAR            01/01/70 00:00      
      Support Forum            01/01/70 00:00      
         Nobody got sacked for buying IBM etc...            01/01/70 00:00      
            it will be flawed            01/01/70 00:00      
               one man's "creature" ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Known or unknown            01/01/70 00:00      
                  The only one with "real" bug reports            01/01/70 00:00      
                     SDCC            01/01/70 00:00      
                        VERY true!            01/01/70 00:00      
   Keil            01/01/70 00:00      
   what I do            01/01/70 00:00      

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